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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Jan 19, 2022 13:02:17 GMT
Gear junkie..
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Post by mark on Jan 20, 2022 15:20:23 GMT
^^^^ Turns and crosses the fall line thinger..TAIN't no Tele!
ARC Gone!
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Jan 30, 2022 13:35:26 GMT
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Post by Grampa Groomer on Jan 30, 2022 15:32:38 GMT
I can't even come within a mile of skiing like that...therefore TAIN'T NO TELE. IT'S PARALLEL CLINKY CLANK!
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Post by I sense on Jan 31, 2022 10:41:01 GMT
I sense a little defensive sounding declamation in the “fake news” post above that comments on the stand-up short radius turn vid.
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Post by Grampa Groomer on Jan 31, 2022 13:14:28 GMT
Well, tain't the GG style a'doin that taller compact Tele. Jot so much fake news as it is no news.
ELONGATE! And lift the heels to 110 degrees, push DOWN on the rear ski and use it like a windshield wiper not a ski. Tip pressure, what's that?
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Post by mark on Jan 31, 2022 14:01:07 GMT
There's far too much blathering in Telemark about just weighting the trailing ski. Yes, it has to be weighted but it in a forward direction NOT just down. That's why, on neutral
bindings especially, Telehiro stands taller, very compact and keeps the heel low ---so he can easier push into the bindings for forward pressure.
If you are on any sort of active bindings, you need not worry all that much about how low you are or exactly how low the heel is PRIVIDED you stay decently/reasonably compact. Active bindings lever pressure to the tips while making it easier to control heel lift. (I am repeating what Ron has often said, but I doubt it can be said enough.)
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Post by cunningstunts on Jan 31, 2022 21:06:11 GMT
Check your mechanics, Mark. It's the other way. Standing taller gives you better downward pressure in neutral bindings. Getting any significantly tip pressure only comes from ramming them to the bale/plastic and going super low. This creates a really awkward situation in neutral bindings. You are getting on the tip of the ski, but you sacrifice a lot of total weighting and the connection in either 3 pin or NNN becomes less solid (both are much more solid with BOF down on the ski). It can work in easy snow, but in firmer snow you'll just be dragging the rear ski around - 'cept maybe on pins with stiff(er) plastic boots - there you'd have enough stiffness to control it - but either is not ideal. Skiing from the middle of the ski is much more effective with neutral bindings - that means a lot of weighting, edging and bending of ski from middle, rather than leveraging just the tip. It's obviously much more difficult.
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Post by mark on Jan 31, 2022 22:59:04 GMT
^^^I think you misapprehend what I am saying. I never said anything about NOT using downward pressure, what I said is if you are only pressuring downward then you have poor leverage on the ski tips. Telehiro skis taller but he also skis with the heels LOW. You cannot pressure forward as well lowRIDING as you can skiing taller, not with pins or NNN or any neutral binding. Your body mass tends to tip over a neutral binding as you go lower as opposed to pushing into the binding. Bindings be damned, you have to project your mass forward and across the skis to ski effectively. The issue with going low on neutral bindings is that the heel becomes hard to hold down. Keep raising the heel in a neutral binding and you will flail.
Telehiro completely proves the point. You cannot effectively push INTO the likes of NNN going low BECAUSE it becomes so hard to keep the heel down to push into the binding well.
As far as parallel turns go, it's obviously much easier to do them on neutral bindings than to Telemark, because, again, heels are basically down and you can bend both knees with maximal weight on the skis and even though you have no boot cuffs, you still are skiing as if you do.
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Post by cunningstunts on Jan 31, 2022 23:53:38 GMT
Parallel turns are easier in the sense the BOF is more connected to the ski, but WAY harder (at times) because (for me) the feeling of going over the bars (tips) is much greater. It's also easier to get in the back seat with your feet together in Alpine form.
I think on mellow slopes, that are perfectly smooth - parallel is maybe a little easier. In any kind of snow that has some resistance, or anything that's been skied, I find it harder. Tele is always harder in terms of actually getting the skis to turn and in terms of lateral stability. That's why the real thing becomes being more dynamic, and using the fore/aft only as much as you need to keep stable in that direction. That's why I think it helps to be compact with those bindings - always really efficiently pushing on the ski. Which in some snow, no matter what, doesn't seem effective.
We know it's harder. There's no question there.
Going low you can get away with it - but you're at the complete mercy of you floppy boots and low leverage bindings. It's a lose-lose with light gear IMO. I can get away with it way more on pins and with easier skis. But I've had my rear ski hit some unstable snow under, start wobbling with no way of recovery. Staying high I wouldn't have done that - I was too much on my toes, and maybe you can get away with it in certain conditions but some you simply cannot.
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Post by cunningstunts on Feb 1, 2022 1:07:40 GMT
And maybe it goes without saying, but that's the beauty of the telemark - you really get this with neutral bindings (or at least I do). It's that you have maximum lateral stability at the start/finish of the turn, when you're crossing the fall line, and maximum for/aft stability when when you're pointing down the fall line - or at least that's how I think of it. It's almost like a friction circle in driving - the more you brake, the less you want to be turning and the more you're are turning, the less you want to be braking. Tele is the same way with balance, or at least trying to put your balance to its best uses in each part of the turn. Adding more than you need in any phase is "overdriving" the skis. And on tricky gear, that usually leads to falling.
If you're staying in a tele, or staying there too long, you're losing stability. If you stay in an Alpine position (feet side-by-side laterally), you're losing stability. If you're stabbing with poles, it's because you're in a tele to long, or too spread. Or you don't have the right lateral lean for your speed.
When you add cables and cuffed boots, etc... you introduce a lot of feedback which makes it easier stay in either position longer - you have more lateral stability due to increased boot ankle support and you have increased for/aft stability from the boot forward flex and cable. Beyond feedback, that can make it a lot easier to either stay up and Alpine or go low and Tele... and the mechanics favor either.
Neutral bindings just force you into a tighter form, to do well.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Feb 1, 2022 14:43:41 GMT
Holding the position too long is like riding a bike too slowly: there's so little forward momentum that all you can do is balance laterally.. hence cometh the spidering and paddling. Tighter form is arguably the most critical thing in Telemark, and also what most struggle with and some never get.
If you carry any speed at all, fore/aft is pretty easy and it maxes in the fall-line.
Parallel on freeheel gear simply puts more boot ON the ski which means more edge control than having one boot down and one up. To ski neutral bindings well, I think you have to still pretend you have boot cuffs because you still need to flex and pressure foreagonally. In the "old days", skiers improvised with the likes of cut up pieces of various plastic barrels.
Telehiro mentions that soft, low-cuffed boots have an advantage on some gear ( neutral ) simply because they do not resist being held on the skis as much --one reason I think it's pointless to whine about wanting stiffer boots for NNN and the like i.e. at some point they do not match up.
Seems like the same old story, going low on pins might have some advantages as far as making it harder to get knocked forward goes, but it's also more likely you will have far less boot/ski contact because the lower you go, the more likely you will be even more on the toes. And foreagonal pressure while skiing on your toes in a neutral binding is basically impossible except in the fakeamarking sense.
The problem re skiing on the toes is usually compounded by the fact that when skiers on lite gear go ever lower to deal with fear of pitching forward, they invariably spread out more, which just contributes to the likelihood that they will be dancing tippy toed even worse.
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Post by Telebabble on Feb 1, 2022 16:14:46 GMT
Unfortunately neutral bindings do not actually force a tight stance. The most common thing you see with skiers on pins or NNN IS BEING TOO SPREAD OUT; it's especially the case with noobs
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Post by cunningstunts on Feb 1, 2022 17:55:28 GMT
I don't disagree with any of that - in practice, not so easy...
In regards to forward pressure in leathers - I like to try to think knees over toes. The closer the leg gets to 90 or more in relation to the ankle, the worse it is. Either forces you back (unstable) or forces you laterally unstable (too low, on toes). Forward the consequences feel obvious - you're gonna go on your nose. But you have to feel all those limits and know how close you are to them.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Feb 2, 2022 13:20:22 GMT
( The answer being no, not if you can just roll from edge to edge, though still you have to ( approximately ) straighten the trailing leg, so you have to extend in proportion to your flex. But it depends on what depth and type of snow you are in also. If you need to come up out of a foot of crud or powder or or or, then flex and extend more. It's also dependent on how laterally stable your gear is and NTN is said to be a step up in lateral stability.)
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