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Post by Lateral on Apr 27, 2021 11:00:19 GMT
If you are a finesse skier....Not a mush-crush power skier.....then you don't.....NEED all that cable and plastic junk....Just saying....Heh! TM
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 27, 2021 13:06:42 GMT
I wouldn't equate toe box stiffness with sole stiffness. We all know 75mm stiffness in that area is a function of materials, but also duckbill thickness. Thick duckbills don't bend and pivot as well as thin ones. So we have a clear tradeoff in that area. NNN-BC boots are not as stiff as thick plastic 75mm even so. But they are or can be stiffer than other comparable 75mm rubber soles. The sole flex on NNN-BC seems to be an issue for some, but even the stiffest I've ever used don't seem to be an issue. They aren't *THAT* stiff. And who knows because anything you read someone is always saying this is too stiff or not stiff enough, blah, blah... it's all pointless without measurement. But common sense and experience tells us what boots are going to excel for DH control and which ones are going to be good for touring. It's up to the end user to decide what is best for their purposes. I don't know exactly how much duckbill plates differ too, but that reinforcement ( thickness materials ) also adds to the stiffness of the 75MM levering system.( You can change boots in 75mm to get something like changing bumpers --or bars were that possible-- in NNN.) In any case, I was just saying that in order to insert a duckbill into a toe cage there has to be some bit of space which would affect "lateral activity" (if you will) however insignificant that might be.. Of course one of the selling points for Telemark binding systems other than 75MM is the claim of a significant increase in lateral stiffness/control..WTVR..
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 27, 2021 15:09:23 GMT
Here's something else the Johnny overlooked or simply does not get: there were lots of decent 75mm binding systems that included no pins ( too many to bother listing ) and various decent plastic 75mm boots that had no pin holes..which just goes to show ( and should have been obvious to Johnny who fancies himself quite the gear expert ) that pins really have nothing to do with lateral leverage or stiffness.
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Post by cunningstunts on Apr 27, 2021 18:49:48 GMT
I wouldn't equate toe box stiffness with sole stiffness. We all know 75mm stiffness in that area is a function of materials, but also duckbill thickness. Thick duckbills don't bend and pivot as well as thin ones. So we have a clear tradeoff in that area. NNN-BC boots are not as stiff as thick plastic 75mm even so. But they are or can be stiffer than other comparable 75mm rubber soles. The sole flex on NNN-BC seems to be an issue for some, but even the stiffest I've ever used don't seem to be an issue. They aren't *THAT* stiff. And who knows because anything you read someone is always saying this is too stiff or not stiff enough, blah, blah... it's all pointless without measurement. But common sense and experience tells us what boots are going to excel for DH control and which ones are going to be good for touring. It's up to the end user to decide what is best for their purposes. I don't know exactly how much duckbill plates differ too, but that reinforcement ( thickness materials ) also adds to the stiffness of the 75MM levering system.( You can change boots in 75mm to get something like changing bumpers --or bars were that possible-- in NNN.) In any case, I was just saying that in order to insert a duckbill into a toe cage there has to be some bit of space which would affect "lateral activity" (if you will) however insignificant that might be.. Of course one of the selling points for Telemark binding systems other than 75MM is the claim of a significant increase in lateral stiffness/control..WTVR.. The cable should remove all the lash if you use one. It'd be like driving a wedge in your back cut to topple a tree. The boot and the binding are both tapered in that way. It's one of the reasons why a 3PC feels more solid than just 3P - you lock the boot laterally into the binding and remove any lash. Lash on 3P varies a lot depending on binding and boot. I've seen too many super Teles fail and they tend to have more lash, so I lean toward Voile for those. The bail is hardened steel and the toe cup/plate is thicker aluminum. The only thing I don't love is the corrosion factor on the bale Yeah there certainly is a difference between duckbill stiffness's in both material rubber + reinforcers vs. plastic(s), and thickness. You can easily surpass the stiffness of NNN-BC with duckbill stiffness but you then would need a free-pivot binding to dial back the touring. At this point 99% of users are just using it for climbing and in deep snow you really want that free pivot so you're not mashing the skis into the snow against your boot stiffness... wasted energy. The increased lateral control and stiffness in other systems comes from mechanics. It's how and where you grab the boot.
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Post by albertatele on Apr 28, 2021 3:15:26 GMT
The cable does remove most of the lash and you are right in that pins have nothing to do with it (lateral leverage). I have some of the old Voile 3PC-P bindings which just used a metal bar in place of a bale. They may have actually been slightly stiffer than the 3PC because of the bar having less lash and they were a good binding for turns hunting.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 28, 2021 14:04:47 GMT
Next came the Hardwires, AT..or maybe they arrived at about the same time as the 3PC with pins removed ? But I think the pinless "3PC" was first..It was just as good for XCD as the 3PC but lacked the redundancy which was nice when going SC/BC with the 3PC. Though breaking a pin(s) as long as you had the cables was of no real concern.
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Post by cunningstunts on Apr 28, 2021 20:50:59 GMT
I prefer using the pins only for touring and the cable for descending. A lot of times I'll ski without it though because I'm generally seeking out nice snow for XCD, and it's fun to ski that way. If the snow is a little unstable, slightly crusty or heavy I'll use it with no shame.
For riding lifts I don't know why you'd do it any other way (than to use cables).
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Post by teledance on Apr 29, 2021 13:13:52 GMT
The cable does remove most of the lash and you are right in that pins have nothing to do with it (lateral leverage). I have someĀ of the old Voile 3PC-P bindings which just used a metal bar in place of a bale. They may have actually been slightly stiffer than the 3PC because of the bar having less lash and they were a good binding for turns hunting. Got rid of a pair of those evil bindings, give me the pins, boot came out at speed and I had a loose ski dangling by the leash, had to lay it down or go thru a slow sign with the dangling ski. Sold them to a guy in Japan for cost of shipping.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 29, 2021 18:27:35 GMT
I prefer using the pins only for touring and the cable for descending. A lot of times I'll ski without it though because I'm generally seeking out nice snow for XCD, and it's fun to ski that way. If the snow is a little unstable, slightly crusty or heavy I'll use it with no shame. For riding lifts I don't know why you'd do it any other way (than to use cables). Sometimes I'll go to a mellow hill and ski just with pins for the experience of trying to Tele with 0 lurch or dealing with being pushed/knocked forward by the snow or terrain etc and recovering. It really is smart to carefully match the boots to the bindings. GT may brag about skiing leathers with plain pins but the truth is you SHOULD ski pins ( or NNN ) with boots that are not stiff, even a T4 is pushing it without cables.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 29, 2021 18:31:23 GMT
The cable does remove most of the lash and you are right in that pins have nothing to do with it (lateral leverage). I have someĀ of the old Voile 3PC-P bindings which just used a metal bar in place of a bale. They may have actually been slightly stiffer than the 3PC because of the bar having less lash and they were a good binding for turns hunting. Got rid of a pair of those evil bindings, give me the pins, boot came out at speed and I had a loose ski dangling by the leash, had to lay it down or go thru a slow sign with the dangling ski. Sold them to a guy in Japan for cost of shipping. The redundancy of of pins in 3PC and HW3pins is a great thing at times. Though a plain Hardwire type will hold better than a springy cable sort.
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Post by teledance on Apr 30, 2021 12:31:52 GMT
Might not have booted out w/a Hardwire but give me the redundancy of the pins, and at least I can ski on those alone.
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Post by mark on May 7, 2021 13:04:12 GMT
Big issue: what's the motivation for a guy like this to shell out 1000 bux for just this Xplore miracle binding and a pair of matching boots? Right, there ain't none. The market has to be created by slick marketing for the Xplore to sell.
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Post by albertatele on May 10, 2021 15:00:20 GMT
Wow, the Xplore system. I see no great advantage (if any at all) in lateral stability over plain pins, and 3PC or a hardwire or most most older cable types will outperform it on the down. Telehiro is skiing better on dirty packed snow than anyone I have seen in a video marketing the Xplore and he's on ancient skis with simple pins and leathers. Remind me again why I should shell out a grand for just Xplore boots and bindings alone? Looking like a joke to me.
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Post by mark on May 27, 2021 14:55:46 GMT
It's worse than hype. It's a VERY expensive setup that will work for Telemark in a very limited range. But here Tom M just has to make a video on things that only show that the Xplore is of very limited downhill value. And STAY TUNED! Because soon a guy who CANNOT even use his poles right is going to go out and Telemark on the Xplore! A Telehiro will be able to ski the Xplore well downhill, but a Telehiro will select the conditions on which he uses it very carefully. Tom M will Tele on the Xplore very poorly and with his usual pole crutching. Some things are easily predicted.
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Post by cunningstunts on May 28, 2021 17:59:19 GMT
www.telemarktalk.com/download/file.php?id=6631Watch the .gif and see how stiff those plastic toe wings are. Nope, it isn't just the boots that are lame. Pretty sure this one is a flop, and would wait a season or two for durability reports. I think LJ knows good and well the system is weak sauce but is playing it up to keep Rottefella happy and further his image as a rebel who can eek performance from flimsy junk. So I finally got around to watching the video TomM posted out of curiosity and see that this plate is Aluminum or something or other. WTF is up with this GIF? Is this just a plastic demo version? That's pretty much a game changer for this type of thing. Still I think it's going to be limited for DH use without a removable cable. At least in the sense that'll it'll be not-much-better-if-at-all than 3 pin or NNN-BC.
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