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Post by albertatele on Apr 27, 2024 18:25:18 GMT
Comparable. Interesting that they are going to sell some lite xcd gear. I don't think it's some surprise that both systems seem to function at about the same level Of course he does not bother to compare them to Voile's 3pin Cable options. I doubt anyone is shocked that he appears to ski both systems at the same level and on the same terrain.
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Post by telebabble on Apr 27, 2024 22:03:22 GMT
WTF, Voile thinks there some $ in xcd? Considering climate issues, that seems ridiculous. Also they should be using a stiffer 75mm boot option to compare the bare pins to Xplore. The Alpina Alaska 75mm is known to be not-great. If a weak 75mm option compares on par with the Xplore boot, what does that tell you?
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 28, 2024 14:33:01 GMT
Look at the boot being raised against the hard flexor, right, it's on the toes, no bof contact with the ski. Dave is a good skier and makes great videos and as the video shows, there's no difference discernable in how he skis either system and there's no weight difference between either setup. You do save a couple hundred bux going with the simple pin setup. To me it's a waste of a good ski to use either configuration. The 3pin cable and T4's will allow skiing that ski in terrain and conditions far beyond the bunny hills in that video and with much better speed with far better stability, plus T2-level boots can be used with the 3pinCable options. And if you elect to use the Hardwire 3pin and T2's with that ski (updated Objective) you're practically unlimited by terrain and conditions.
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Post by albertatele on Apr 28, 2024 15:18:49 GMT
Right, the hard flexor does not mean a hell of a lot if you have to stand on your toes to really make use of it. Mounting that ski up with either binding does seem silly when it's capable of being used at such higher levels than for rolling hills or bunny slopes. Not all that long ago 85mm underfoot was a "fat" ski.
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Post by lowangle al on Apr 29, 2024 12:18:52 GMT
Comparable. Interesting that they are going to sell some lite xcd gear. I don't think it's some surprise that both systems seem to function at about the same level Of course he does not bother to compare them to Voile's 3pin Cable options. I doubt anyone is shocked that he appears to ski both systems at the same level and on the same terrain. I detect upper body and hip rotation in that guys skiing. Like I said, "you guys have some catching up to do"
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Post by albertatele on Apr 29, 2024 13:16:18 GMT
Al, give it up. You cannot justify upperbody flailing. You will convert no good skier to using a lot of upperbody rotary to initiate turns. You simply don't know what you are talking about, period. Are you trying to be funny? Dave's arms stay quietly in front without crossing his body. He does use noticable up-unweighting. There's very little upperbody rotation in his skiing. Allowing the arms to relax and move a bit fore/aft in the pole plants is not upperbody rotation.
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Post by telebabble on Apr 29, 2024 13:35:49 GMT
Al, I'm sure you see upperbody rotation in this video too, but there ain't none. You need to stick to playing expert instructor at Ttalk with TomM where there are countless innocents who may believe you. There's almost no one here who will buy your bullshit. This is what we all mean by a quiet upperbody or upper and lower separation, so you know, because you really don't know wtf we are talking about.
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Post by telerat on Apr 29, 2024 13:56:18 GMT
Alaska XP is (for reasons only known to Alpina) lower and less supportive than the 75 and BC versions, so actually worse for turns even though Xplore being better than 3-pin and NNN-BC. The Alaska 75 (and BC) are relatively high, nice and supportive boots for mellow and flat tours in untracked snow. They do have a narrow last and does not fit all. Alpina also have the Pioneer Tech and Pro, but both seem like soft and fast boots, even though the Tech has a reinforced heel cup. So Alpina is missing more supportive boots, and especially for Xplore.
The Voile 201-binding looks like a good match to Alpina Alaska 75, Crispi Nordland and Sydpolen, or similar boots, and it seems to be much like the Rottefella Super Telemark binding. With Xplore out I have no interest in such a boot and binding combination, but many still want 75mm boots. NNN-BC is not too far off either, and I have seen tests that rate the Alaska BC above the 75 for support, but the NNN-BC system has its own issues.
None of those boots mentioned above have support like the old high leather boots with thick classic 75mm Norwegian welt soles and I would not choose any of them for a ski like the Endeavour. The Objective or Endeavour with T4/Excursion would be a nice match, but a T2 would also work well for steeper skiing. Alfa Free would for lower angle and slower turns in soft snow, but I personally would then rather go to steeper terrain, wider skis and stiffer boots. Free is significantly more supportive than Alaskas, but has toe crunching issues. Gear, as well as where and when to ski is of course a personal preference.
The hard flexor in the video looks to be a bit softer and flex more than the ones I have, and thus allows for more ball/forefoot rise. Xplore having the connection points on the side eliminates twisting of the duckbill and the play in the 3-pin binding interface. It also has a stiffer sole than the soft molded 75mm rubber soles, but the rest of the boot has to match. Heel lift resistance with the hard flex is much higher than pure 3-pin bindings, while the kick and glide performance with the standard flex is better. Xplore boots are also significantly lighter than equivalent 75mm boots due to not needing the steel plate to reinforce the 3-pin holes; Alaska XP weighed in at 650 grams in size 38 vs. 890 grams in size 37.
Any boot/binding combination will have ball of foot lift, to varying degrees, even 75mm in cable bindings or NTN boots/bindings. My Xplore boots and binding with the stiff flex feels much like my TX or Terminator boots in that regard, but with much less bending resistance and support of course.
I hope Voile's business decisions are sound, as I quite like them and want Voile to prosper.
Edit: Nice technique video in the post above. In the first video Dave is obviously on the limit with the boot/binding/ski combination. He is a good skier, so it works, but I do not think it is for everybody. Alfa Free or Crispi Futura Pro/CXP would be a better match for that skiing than Alaskas at least. Last edit: also see his boot twist @ 2:54 when stepping in to verify that the boot is secure; kind of like with tech bindings/boots.
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Post by telebabble on Apr 29, 2024 14:06:37 GMT
Interestingly, Dave seems to rate Xplore and the 201 setup as basically equivalent for downhill control. I see little difference, if any, in how he skis each system in the video. As you say, he is a very good skier.
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Post by telebabble on Apr 29, 2024 14:13:48 GMT
Here's why I also would never mount Xplore or nnn or a simple pin (no spring, hardwire or cable) binding to endeavor. It would be, for me, just wasting an expensive ski.
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Post by lowangle al on Apr 29, 2024 14:52:39 GMT
Al, give it up. You cannot justify upperbody flailing. You will convert no good skier to using a lot of upperbody rotary to initiate turns. You simply don't know what you are talking about, period. Are you trying to be funny? Dave's arms stay quietly in front without crossing his body. He does use noticable up-unweighting. There's very little upperbody rotation in his skiing. Allowing the arms to relax and move a bit fore/aft in the pole plants is not upperbody rotation. First of all I'm not talking about flailing. I'm not a flailer. Secondly, he's not keeping his body square to the hill, so if it's not one, it's the other. Third, were not talking about B tele so how he unweights is irrelevant. Someone recently questioned how long I've been skiing. I did my first T turns 40 years ago this month and was all geared up for the start of the next season. That's 39 seasons doing T turns. Almost 35 of those years were in Ak where I skied from mid October to mid May. For 25 of those years I didn't work winters so I did a lot of skiing. I'm not trying to convert anyone into how I ski. I'm just saying what I do. I didn't start deliberate upper body rotation until about 12 years ago and I just started hip rotation the past couple seasons. I don't know why you guys assume I can't ski or that I'm fucking with you. If what I do didn't work why would I do it.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 29, 2024 15:47:34 GMT
Al, you really need to do some serious homework. It's NOT one or the other, just for starters. And how he unweights is just a detail of how he is skiing. And dragging in "B-tele" (which you really don't understand) has nothing to do with anything really. You make the claim that Dave is turning with his upperbody but anyone with eyes can see he is not. If you think throwing the upperbody to get the skis to initiate is good skiing, that only proves you really don't understand the basics of good skiing. long(er) or short radius, upperbody rotation is for beginners and for good instructors to help eliminate. It's hard to even justify upperbody thrashing as a survival method though, because at least 95% of the time, it only serves to destabilize the skiing.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 29, 2024 16:01:55 GMT
Al, ridiculous upperbody thrashing, arms crossing the the body is what you try and justify as good skiing. You can do it all you want, it's bad skiing. It's simply antithetical to balance. HANDS comfortably in front and to the sides a bit.. DO NOT punch side-to-side!
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Post by albertatele on Apr 29, 2024 16:15:56 GMT
Al, you claim to ski the B-tele. Where exactly is Telehiro throwing his arms across his torso? When you thrash with the upperbody, it's really obvious because the arms move inwards and across the upperbody and it's the first movement in the turn. It's one of the 2 most common mistakes beginners make and some never deal with it ever. You'll never see Telehiro turn by throwing the shoulders and arms.. The idea is to move from the hips down not hips up. Stand on the floor and throw left and right hooks; that's upperbody rotation. Now stand on the floor and do the "twist"; that's turning by the legs in the hip joint.
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Post by telebabble on Apr 30, 2024 14:51:59 GMT
It seems Al does not understand skiing in counter which applies mostly to long or longer radius turns in which the skier skis basically facing across the hill AND DOWN at the apex of the coming turn. This does create a slight twist in the upperbody usually aided and timed by the pole plant and is followed by a natural pivot of the lower body to initiate the new turn or monomark into the initiation. It has nothing to do with winding up the upperbody and throwing yourself into a turn; it's subtle, controlled and it allows the lowerbody to pivot to match the upperbody and change edges smoothly.
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