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Post by telebabble on Apr 2, 2024 17:40:07 GMT
Well eddie, so far Xplore is left at home as often as not when Telehiro skis lite. Bare pins, NNN or Xplore, he skis them all the same and with about equal frequency.
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Post by telebabble on Apr 2, 2024 17:48:26 GMT
Vids? I don't ski to impress Jodie Foster, I ski because I enjoy skiing. Lighter duty, less constraining gear requires more finesse; if you're used to having your forefoot held down for you, you might need to work on the technique to keep your forefoot down without that crutch. Sort of like how people used to fixed heel downhill gear will have all sorts of problems using, say, and Excursion boot, when they try to lean into the cuff to maintain balance, and the boot just isn't the kind of crutch that they're used to. I can't speak for Telehiro or whoever Al is, but lighter duty gear is inherently less stable, which is a tradeoff that some of us happily make when out on mellower terrain. Turns are going to be less elegant. Oh well. For those of us with enough cash lying around to get good stuff though, Xplore is super nice in what used to be the Asolo Snowfield-Snowpine-Summit niche, with striding that's right up there with NNN-BC (better than any 3-pin unless the boots are total washcloths) and much better turning capabilities than not just NNN-BC but also any non-stiff 3-pin boots ever made. Ha ha. supposedly the bumpers are a big Xplore advantage because they "resist" heel lift. So you are bragging on a system with a different "crutch". Thing is, and it's been mentioned 100000 times in this exact forum, Telehiro knows the secret to skiing the ultra light : KEEP THE HEEL down to 2 or 3 inches and you'll need to be super tight in your stance to do it.
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Post by telebabble on Apr 2, 2024 17:50:56 GMT
And you'll still want decent skis and boots for skiing downhill even if you have the same skills as a Telehiro.
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Post by eddiedingle on Apr 2, 2024 18:35:16 GMT
Well eddie, so far Xplore is left at home as often as not when Telehiro skis lite. Bare pins, NNN or Xplore, he skis them all the same and with about equal frequency. Dude, I have multiple pairs of plastic tele boots and skis to go with them. And some NNN-BC and NNN. And AT and fixed-heel downhill. Your whole point is that beefy plastic is superior for the kinds of skiing that you do, and that even some guy named Telehiro isn't 100% committed to Xplore? You might want to re-read the part of my earlier post where I said, "well duh!!" Ha ha. supposedly the bumpers are a big Xplore advantage because they "resist" heel lift. So you are bragging on a system with a different "crutch". Thing is, and it's been mentioned 100000 times in this exact forum, Telehiro knows the secret to skiing the ultra light : KEEP THE HEEL down to 2 or 3 inches and you'll need to be super tight in your stance to do it. It's all about trade-offs. If I'm doing steepish frontcountry, I'm happy to be more stable and more constrained. If I'm doing a day of mellow rolling terrain with some turns here and there, it feels a lot better to be on less constraining gear. It's weird that people are arguing for maximal constraint and leverage in a telemark forum.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 2, 2024 21:36:12 GMT
Eddie, at some point, depending on exact conditions, sloppy bindings and dishrag boots are of a lot less use even compared to moderately "constraining" boots and bindings. Even breaking trail on the flats, in some conditions, T4's with Voile 3pinCables ATTACHED can be more efficient than flailing around on dishrag Xplore or NNN or bare-pin gear. It's not quite as simple as you suggest. And I have watched people flexing the "stiffest" Xplore boot options, they are dishrags compared to even a T4.
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Post by eddiedingle on Apr 3, 2024 1:24:34 GMT
Yeah, I don't think you have. These boots aren't plastic, but they sure aren't dishrags. This system isn't the least bit "sloppy", what's sloppy is the duckbills of (with a few boot models) otherwise identical boots in 3-pin versions, which *require* some torsional slop in the sole that connects to the binding in order to enable some kind of striding flex.
Like telebabble, you're acting like I have no experience with plastic boots. Wrong again. It's a simple fact that these stride like proper XC gear, and plastic boots, even just with pins, don't. You disagree because (1) Clearly, you're dilettante-level as an XCer so don't know what you're talking about re striding performance, and (2) Your whole deal is to dig into a particular argument and make shit up as needed to support that.
I've skied on this stuff. You'd think my perspective on something outside of your experience area would be welcomed. Ha ha, maybe see you again in a few years!
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 3, 2024 1:44:49 GMT
Wtvr, I have a garage full of traditional XC and skate gear. Actually just 3 pairs of each but I seldom go to the Nordic centers anymore.. Strange thing Eddie, for all your experience , you can't seem to ski Xplore, NNN and bare pins each with about the same fluidity and control as Telehiro ?? Seems odd..I'll just take the advice I got from Rottefella and stick with a good 75mm active system for downhill skiing. You can keep calling dishrags whatever you want. And try and read Edward. I said dishrags compared to T4's.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 3, 2024 1:51:14 GMT
Just look at these stiff boots, Eddie!!! Weeeeeeee!
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Apr 3, 2024 13:38:05 GMT
Eddie says active bindings and stiffer boots are crutches to keep skiers from skiing on their toes. But the truth is, gear be damned, it matters not if you have flawed technique full of imbalance. Weak skiers are not fixed by gear. The shitty skiing does not vary by changing gear.
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Post by mca80 on Apr 3, 2024 21:44:05 GMT
It's a simple fact that these stride like proper XC gear, and plastic boots, even just with pins, don't. I have not skied xplore, but I have seen some videos. For instance this one at 1:05 in: The foot/boot does not appear to flex anything close to what happens in an nnn boot (or nnnbc)--there is not the flex you see in normal classic xc systems, but instead the whole ball of foot comes off the ski. Even in their early advertising as well as reviews by Johnny it is implied the stride is in fact different. So I think one cannot say they stride like proper xc gear. Edit: I don't mean at the end of the stride--in all systems the whole foot is off the ski. I mean if you can focus in on the point at which the stride begins, when first pushing off--it looks very cumbersome in the xplor video, but you watch any classic xc skier in slow mo and you see the push-off comes from the ball of foot before that too comes off the ski in finishing the stride.
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Post by albertatele on Apr 3, 2024 22:37:43 GMT
I don't know about striding so much but as far as Telemark turn form goes, that video (and a lots of others) is just terrible. No good Tele skier stands on his toes like that. That's just dragging the rear ski around and it will be a giant fail on any real slope at any decent speed especially when the snow is not really good. And that's exactly how the 2 skiers above that Rott ad show their Xplore skills. You cannot convince me that there's any resistance to heel lift at all when people ski that system like the skiers in both of those videos above do. They effortlessly stand on their toes.
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Post by albertatele on Apr 4, 2024 15:42:32 GMT
I think what "Eddie" completely misses is that there appears to be no difference in how Telehiro skis Xplore, pins or NNN. He seems to have no preference between the 3 and skis them equally well in basically the same terrain and conditions. One might expect to see him on Xplore more often if it really mattered. In fact, Telehiro did take an Xplore system to the bumps one day and it was pretty skittery skiing which I think was to be expected. NNN, plain 3-pins and Xplore all obviously have their limits given steepness and exact conditions but even if Xplore is more stable in some situations than the other 2, the big question is how much more stable and is it worth the extra $$$?
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Post by telerat on Apr 12, 2024 12:48:48 GMT
It is a bit fun to read the comments here, but I don't think Eddie cares much about what you guys say. It is nice to see you coming around to Xplore being usable though :-P As I have written before, I skied 75mm on xcd/backcountry gear for 30+ years and switched to Xplore two years ago. I also skied 75mm telemark and continue to do so, but use NTN for telemark. I also have NNN classic and touring skis, but not skate skis so far. Lastly I also have Nordic/touring skates that I have used with both 75mm, NNN and Xplore. All of the systems have their strengths and weaknesses and none are perfect. Some corrections and comments on what has been written in this thread. The Xplore sole is much stiffer than any NNN-BC or a 75mm molded sole, but traditional 75mm soles are usually stiffer. Stiffness of soles is directly related to torsional rigidity, so unless one goes free pivot there will be a compromise. The NNN-BC sole is much softer and easier flexing than Xplore, as the molded 75mm rubber sole, but the upper also contributes to the stiffness of any boot so one must consider the whole boot construction. Alfa Greenland 75mm were so soft I could twist the sole easily with my bare hands, so I dismissed that boot as unsuitable for any of my 75mm skiing, while Alpina Alaska was much better. The Xplore with the hard flexor and rubber sole will resist lifting of the heel, just like a cable/wire binding and increase control, but softer than that. The videos linked features the old hard flex that was much softer than the current one, so tippy toe skiing resulted as with the standard flexor. Changing the flexor is quick, but not like Switchback, nor as 3-pin with cable if it lays ready behind the heel on the ski. Alfa Free is partly a plastic boot, due to an internal plastic support, and much stiffer than any pure leather boot, but it is light and also made out of fabric. It is still quite low at 17 cm (less than 7 inches) height in size 43 and fit is not universal with toe crunch being a problem for many. Crispi Futura Pro/CXP seems like the other supportive alternative, and looks to be a Svartisen with Xplore sole and a Velcro strap on top. And here are a two videos from a decent skier on Xplore: www.facebook.com/1428093066/videos/4817077098399556/Xplore advantages are step in and out, no right or left binding, no play or squeak in the binding interface, better skiing performance on flats, better hiking/walking comfort and a narrower binding/boot. Step in needs twisting to ensure both pins are engaged, a bit like the dynafiddle on tech bindings, but then it has been 100% reliable for me. Each have to decide if the extra cost is worth it, as especially the binding is much more expensive than regular 3-pin/NNN-BC. Boots are slightly to quite a bit more expensive (10-20%) depending on manufacturer. I would recommend Xplore for skis with a 55-68 mm waist for turning and wider for flat terrain trekking. For Nordic/touring skating I prefer Xplore to 75mm as the 3-pin binding touched ice on strong strokes, and regular NNN has a plastic sole that is dangerous on ice. Hiking with Xplore and ice cleats also worked very well. I quickly learned to dismiss the hype of Johnny running the wrongly named Telemarktips forum, but quite a few there have knowledge and experience that is useful to read. Johnny's reveiws claiming that the pin width of 75mm is 33mm and that determines the control shows a complete lack of physics understanding:https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4071He also adds other subjective ratings to support his preferences, like the table in his boot rating chart in this post: www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4085Claiming Alpina Pioneer Pro has better lateral control and downhill performance than the Alfa Free is plainly wrong, as Pioneer is a much softer and lower boot than the Free. When I wrote that I had tried Pioneer Pro in another thread and came away fairly unimpressed, he was quite heated in the reply. He, as anyone else, is free on whatever boot to prefer of course.
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Post by albertatele on Apr 12, 2024 15:56:51 GMT
I think skiers on this forum tend to focus more on downhill control than slogging along in the ungroomed snow to get to low angle gems. I have skates and traditional XC NNN track setups which can be fun on the Nordic groomers to pull off very limited Telemark turns but I would never try and sell any of that as great for hunting turns because it's just not. Stiffness of sole directly affects torsional rigidity applied to the skis, but springs, cables and hardwires do the same and if you don't have them, then you are missing a piece compared to someone who does. The torsional stiffness of any Xplore boot does not compare to an Excursion or a T4, and systems with springy cables, braided cables or hardwires just add more lateral support and torsional force that can be applied to the skis. It's really that simple. Xplore + the best boot available mounted on the Voile Objective simply cannot really compare to the same ski using the Voile Traverse or 3PC and the T4 or Excursion (T4 is stiffer than the Excursion) and it's beyond silly to bother comparing the best Xplore configuration to a T4 and a Voile 3pin Hardwire. The only reason to replace my xcD setups that include the Traverse binding for Xplore would be, essentially, limited downhill skiing on low angle slopes. If you want to see good skiing on Xplore, then watch how Telehiro does it- heels very low, very tight stance, good to great snow and generally lower angle terrain.
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Post by albertatele on Apr 12, 2024 16:09:22 GMT
Trat, A few comments on this skiing: 1) low angle, looks like a few inches of good snow on a very supportive base (very much like skiing groomers with a dusting of a few inches of snow), he's very often tippy-toed.
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