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Post by Nordic! on Oct 29, 2020 13:18:22 GMT
NORDIC skiing is about having a heel that can be lifted from the ski. Nordic skiing includes various sports and it has NOTHING to do with either the exact camber or the width and length or weight of the skis you use, or whether you use a cable binding or no connection to your boot heels at all.
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Post by mark on Oct 29, 2020 15:36:57 GMT
"Skinny"? NO.. Heel straps? YES.. Heavily cambered? NO! Rocker? YES!
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Post by mark on Oct 29, 2020 15:40:24 GMT
Make your own!
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Post by mark on Oct 29, 2020 15:52:17 GMT
The oldest ski ever found in Norway is 1300 years old, a fat ski with the same basic binding used on the earliest Tele skis.
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Post by cunningstunts on Oct 29, 2020 16:11:00 GMT
We don't know the exact origins, etc, of skiing but it seems to me that the 1300 yr old Norwegian skis are probably similar to what is used by traditional trappers in Siberia and similar to what Altai people use (I'd guess the white settlers in Siberia copied the indigenous technology). Skis were found in Russia dating from almost 8000 years ago. Likely the same binding systems as those in ancient Norse skis.
The "old" traditional ski was short, wide, no camber and used skins on the bottom - from various animals depending on location but in Siberia they use moose.
These "trapper" skis are more like snowshoes though. Short and wide for any snow conditions and dealing with tight Boreal forests.
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Post by cunningstunts on Oct 29, 2020 16:13:43 GMT
Really skinny skis were developed based on track skiing and/or skiing on packed snow in Arctic expeditions. Same with double camber - it is a track skiing thing.
Most real (good) BC XC skis are wider than groomed tracks and don't have double camber.
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Post by mark on Oct 30, 2020 13:59:01 GMT
The earliest skis we have record of were, as Mike mentioned, fat and relatively short and used skins. They appear to be a blend of snowshoe and ski. They were much like what we see the Atai people still using, not long, fat and not cambered, and with a lot of tip rocker.
The skis of the Altai inspired the skis now made by the Altai company of NE Washington State:
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Post by mark on Oct 30, 2020 14:20:21 GMT
There are ample photos of the early (19th century) Telemark skiers and they are all on gear like this.The skis fell into a typical pattern which was not skinny and not cambered.
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Post by Mike on Oct 30, 2020 15:26:19 GMT
I’d be willing to bet not many centuries after humans migrated north and lived permanently in the Tiaga that skiing was invented. Wood skis were really only refined by the scandanavians relatively recently but their prominent wood design seemed to have been mild camber, rockered and mid- width unlike the Tiaga skis. They stopped using skins before wax was discovered and piled and skated. Those ski shapes may actually have dated to Middle Ages but sondre is credited with a lot of the modern Norwegian wood shape. Not sure how much of that is true and how much is legend. Likely skinny skis didn’t show up until 1900s sometime. Considering skiing is at least 8000 years old it’s a pretty new development.
Hoks are supposed to be a modern re-imagination of a Siberian ski.
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Post by mark on Oct 30, 2020 15:35:12 GMT
I do not think there is any doubt at all that both groomed XC and groomed downhill skiing drove the move to skinnier ski forms, being that in both cases, less width of the ski can have advantages. And grooming went on, it seems, from at least the early 1800's in Scandanavia where troops were used to pack the snow for XC races. The same sort of "grooming" went on at resorts in the this country often many years before an area was called a resort.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Oct 30, 2020 16:14:57 GMT
Almost every resort out here has a few pair of woodies hanging in the lodge. Generally they have a little shape and would be in the 80 range underfoot, and are certainly longer for recreational skiing than the average ski today. Here is a pair of skis made by Northland for the 10th Mountain Divison in WW2. They were, obviously, selected for both overland and downhill use. The width averages about 77mm which is not fat by today's standards but is fatter than the 85-65-75 profile which was widely used for alpine skiing even into the early 90's.They are relatively long.
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Post by mark on Oct 31, 2020 13:33:01 GMT
The 10 Mountain Division's display of the skis they found suitable for both overland and downhill skiing includes NOTHING like a 10 foot ski 65mm wide. The father of Telemark embraced shortER, not double cambered, shaped and NOT narrow skis. ( 6 - 7foot would be common depending on skier height.) 55-60 mm Skis from the 30's and 40's are simply not seen. The common width for old wooden skis is aroun 80mm. And going back to the REAL origins of Tele: Fatter, shorter, a bit shaped , low camber, lots of tip rocker, and with a heel straps!!
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Oct 31, 2020 14:41:12 GMT
It's hard to find data on traditional wooden skis, but this is an interesting link to a video of a guy who makes what he calls "Traditional Scandanavian Wooden Skis". But what he means by that are skis that would be used for rambling around the countryside and forest, overland skis and not skis designed per se for Telemark or alpine skiing, more of an XCD design.. In any case, he mounts them with Voile pins and the ski dimensions are 101-70-81. More shapely and a bit wider underfoot than the common alpine shape of 85-65-75 used not so long ago. Wooden Ski Site
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