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Post by mark on Feb 25, 2024 20:07:04 GMT
^^Sure a couple garlands with you on some old rusty gear and they are all set, Tm..for a lifetime of flopping around maybe. You cannot Telemark if you cannot stably execute the basics of alpine skiing. Your advice isn't just bad, it's horrible. But people do follow that path you suggest and often they yap and yap about Telemark and then they post videos in which it is obvious they do not have even have the most basic skills. If you cannot snowplow, stem turn, do step turns, do pivoted turns, do Christies or come close to a basic alpine parallel turn, I guarantee you are not a Telemark skier anyone would want to emulate and you never will be until you get basic alpine skills mastered. I'm sorry TM but your videos are full of all manner of weak balance and flailing. After all theses years, for example, you are still poking and poling with the uphill pole for balance. You should NOT be giving advice to anyone about how to ski let alone Telemark. You are no more qualified to teach than Tom M.
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Post by telebabble on Feb 25, 2024 20:20:01 GMT
One sees the TM method of "teaching" quite often at ski areas: some idiot shoves his friend off the hill and the results are predictably ridiculous. Oh boy, someone makes some half-assed attempt and pulls off some turn that resembles a Telemark turn in some horrific and pathetic way (typically so spread out he looks like a poodle) so now he's all set to link turns and rip the hills? Yeah, that's dumb as hell. It is a great way to turn people off to snow sports however. It's just basic common sense i.e. if you cannot alpine ski, you cannot leap ahead to Telemark.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Feb 26, 2024 1:16:59 GMT
TM: "If they are into cruising and BC skiing just teach them a turn out tele." And exactly HOW could they be "into" a sport they have absolutely no experience with? It's the height of irresponsibility to just push someone over the hill if they don't even know how to snowplow. Get real Tm. I am sure we agree that Telemark beginners need to know how to use a braking snowplow, steps, basic stem turns and Christies to start Telemark. No decent Telemark ski instructor will take a skier to teach unless they can ski blue runs in control. Over and over I see the same problems in the videos of Ttalk members and it all boils down to the same issue: NO STABLE BASIC SKI SKILLS. But a fair number of cross country skiers are cross-disciplinary in snow sports so some already do have decent downhill skills to carry into xcD and Telemark but it's certainly not the rule.
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Post by teleman on Feb 26, 2024 13:54:31 GMT
BS Ron! I have taught the turn and the need for christies, and snowplow is not necessary. If they can stand on the skis and have a modicum of balance they don't need the other stuff. In fact, they are better off without the baggage. Good Lord think of the equipment they will use. learn out in the bush and START with the turn out tele and they will be better for it. And remember er, forgot his name, "It is a NORDIC turn." If your skiing lift served most of the time the Nordic turn doesn't exist. Gawd! Lift served Telemark isn't real Telemark. Short stubby skis for BC you got to be kidding. TM
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Feb 26, 2024 14:34:43 GMT
OK, sure Bruce, you taught the world Telemark and it never knew how to put its boots in its bindings. Let's stop the ranting and nonsense now. If the Telemark noob has no alpine skills, all you are doing is wasting their time and yours both trying to teach them tele. And someone who cannot do a braking snowplow or simple stem turn has no bsns jumping into Telemark. There's a PROGRESSION, period. You cannot, in any sane way, teach Calculus before Algebra and that's why REAL Telemark instructors require a stable level of skiing before they will try and teach anyone Telemark. NO MORE RANTING! P.S. if you want to see the results of flailing at Telemark for YEARS (the way you suggest) by approaching it with no real alpine skills, just watch some of Tom M's videos or those of a lot of others in the XCd crowd at Ttalk.
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Post by albertatele on Feb 26, 2024 15:12:40 GMT
Look, let's assume you teach someone with 0 ski experience to do a simple unlinked Telemark turn in either direction. Ok, so now it's time to link the turns. There are a fixed number of ways to link turns: by stem, by steps, by skis in parallel by, hops, by staggered hops, by monotele. Now it's understood that such a "skier" has None of those skills to use, so it's essential now for the student to master those basic alpine techniques or he/she CANNOT link turns. So what the instructor is forced to do is to TEACH BACKWARDS- and that's why Telemark instructors require basic alpine skills to teach new students. Look, here's exactly the issue shown in the following video: the skier is linking Telemark turns by a stem turn. If the skier could not do a stemmed turn, then he simply could not use it to link the turns. Linking Telemark turns is done by a set of choices and every choice is an alpine turn skill (excepting monotele/monomark) and there's nothing else to it.
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Post by telebabble on Feb 26, 2024 15:35:26 GMT
I would add that any GOOD cross country skier knows how to snowplow, do stemmed turns and step turns and probably skidded parallel turns and maybe a hop turn. So they have the basic skillset to enter Telemark and be able to link their turns. (They too often stumble over by trying to use the poles to diagonally stride the lead change but that's easily corrected.) But the idea that someone with NO other turn skills can jump right into linking Telemark turns is drooling nonsense because they simply lack the skills.linking Telemark turns requires alpine skills or the monotele. This is a good video of basic Telemark on true cross country gear. He obviously is a Telemark (bigger gear) skier also.
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Post by telebabble on Feb 26, 2024 15:52:18 GMT
Same guy as above but showing a progression on big gear. He links his turns with a stemmed turn and then a parallel. Telemark turn initiations require alpine skills. If you don't have those skills before trying to link Tele turns, then you're stuck having to stop and step into the fall line to turn.
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Post by telerat on Feb 26, 2024 17:59:55 GMT
Very nice and instructive videos. Anyone has to learn to walk before running (and rising/standing before that). Telemark turns on skinny straight skis are much more difficult than on real telemark gear, but also great fun if the conditions are right/easy enough. I did not get real telemark progression until I got skis with proper side-cut, but then I really started to understand the turn and progress. That should not be a problem with modern alpine/telemark skis, but on track skis it is and on old school telemark skis it can be.
Many xc or xcd/backcountry/mountain skiers can not do a telemark(ish) turn, and either steps the skis into a turn or just zig-zags down. So I am unsure on how many it is possible to recruit from that crowd, but the more the merrier. Those of them that skies steeper terrain usually are on AT gear and some/quite a few of them can not ski that gear properly either. With the extra support they get down much easier than on xcd gear though. I skied the same (rather easy) terrain on Alfa Free, Asnes Falketind 62 XP and Xplore with hard flexor. On the ascent I had to wait for some in our party that where in similar form to and on heavier gear than me, while on the descent they had to wait on me for a short while. I had no problem keeping up downhill with weak skiers on AT gear though, and we had to wait on one of our party helping an AT skier that hurt the knee in a crash. It was a much less exhausting tour than the next day on steeper terrain and NTN, but both days were great. So choose gear suitable to terrain/conditions/skill/preferences.
NTN felt awful at first, as it was stiffer and even less forgiving to my errors in the turn than sturdy 75mm boots and bindings. Now I can ski both without issues and get low on NTN if I want to. I have skied 75mm leather boots since 1992 (and from childhood on xc skis), as well as the original Terminator since '96 or so, but I do not think it is needed any more with Xplore and NTN/TTS covering the two ends of the spectrum. There is a gap between them, and I believe a lower/lighter NTN boot similar to T4 can cover that with TTS-bindings. I have no preference on gear, and will use what I find most suitable/enjoyable (if I can afford it). I have always pondered on the strong feelings many has defending their ski/camera/bike gear or car model/manufacturer.
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Post by telebabble on Feb 26, 2024 18:12:31 GMT
Well, covering the ends of the spectrum (low end Xplore, high and higher end NTN or TTS) still leaves the gap in the middle. Also it does nothing to address the fact that (as is very widely accepted) no other gear feels like the Telemark turn does on 75mm. You make the assumption that a new lite boot in the T4 class will come to TTS and obviate the "need" for all 75mm. The truth is 75mm, from bare pins to the old 3Pin cable to Switchbacks and the most active 75mm, virtually covers the whole spectrum right now- with the possible exceptions of the most extreme conditions and terrain and race needs. In any case, I see nothing in Xplore to make me race out and spend a big wad on it. I have seen no one skiing it on much of anything challenging by way of difficult snow or really steep terrain.In fact everything I've seen Xplore used for I've seen skied just as well on bare pins and NNN/Bc.
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Post by telebabble on Feb 26, 2024 18:27:39 GMT
BTW, saying: "skiing Xplore on ez slopes and snow is the equivalent of being a bad skier on AT gear on the same slopes" is really not much of a selling point.
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Post by telerat on Feb 26, 2024 19:29:26 GMT
75mm is not magic and both Xplore and NTN offers the free heel and sensation I am after, while solving issues and increasing usability, but of course nothing is perfect. 75mm covered the whole spectrum in my youth, but the track skiing has left it. We will see what others areas will eventually. Cross usage of boots is nice, but I am not sure if it is valuable enough to sacrifice performance in other areas.
Heavier gear have and should have better support/downhill performance than light gear. I have done the same tour before on heavier gear and thought it was too low angle for that gear. This last time all I saw, but a few on telemark and splitboard, was on AT gear. If a decent skier like me can keep up with/outski bad skiers on AT gear the gear is fine for its intended use. It is not meant to replace plastic telemark boots and cable bindings. Each has to decide on gear depending on terrain/conditions/skill/preferences, and for some uses light is fun and/or right.
Each also have to decide what one will spend cash on, and the market/big manufacturers will decide what gear will be available. If you already have well functioning 75mm or NNN-BC gear I see little reason to run out and replace it with Xplore.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Feb 27, 2024 2:18:56 GMT
Bruce, no ranting. You have repeated the same things 10000000000 times and at least half of it is just nonsense. Ski the gear you like, but it does not make you some God of Nordic skiing. If you must rant, create you own threads to rant in and be prepared to be challenged without throwing fits. And, BTW, the skis used by the father of Telemark were far far fatter than what you proclaim to be "real" Telemark skis.
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Post by teleman on Feb 27, 2024 9:34:29 GMT
I like minimal gear. Figured this site needed some, uh, excitement. Job well done! Arc on your downhill ALPINE equipment and rave on about Telemark. ^^^^^^ And didn't he use vines and birch for bindings? Again try getting to the goods on your equipment then use some BC skinnies. You MIGHT feel the difference. And the most spiritual thing of all...... she lifted her shirt precisely because of the equipment and the incredible ride SHE saw up at Tuckerman's Ravine. What a riot! OK ron back to the old dullsville. TM
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Post by telebabble on Feb 27, 2024 14:26:17 GMT
^Your brain is stuck in a ditch repeating the same old rambles and rants forever. And BTW, Father Telemark used heel straps and it's hilarious that you rattle on about some old PLASTIC junk skis that showed up a few decades ago (and some only 10-20 years ago) like they are "original" Telemark skis. You ski on the same level as Tom M and it's far more cross country skiing (with a lot of imbalance that forces you to poke around with the uphill pole continuously) than anything resembling real telemark so you have no business trying to teach anyone anything about Telemark gear or techniques. There are (sadly) however worse skiers than you posting it up with their lack of good advice and they are easily found at Johnny's, which is a perfect fit for you, Tm.
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