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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Mar 18, 2021 13:39:04 GMT
Ok, to be kind, it's a gross exaggeration. One of the developers is saying, at Ttalk, that the binding/boot combination will handle " a ski" up to 88mm underfoot. But here's a video which shows just how torsionally weak the boot soles are as well as how there's really very little resistance to heel lift in the system at all. But this is supposed to be a great Telemark match for a ski like a Volkl RTM 84? Sorry, that's a fkin' joke. It appears they have achieved the original stated objective of nothing more than improving the stiffness of this EXPENSIVE boot/binding interface over NNN. IT's a REVOLUTION!!!!! Nope, just another ski industry hype. I just love how the boot wrings like a dishrag!
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Mar 18, 2021 13:49:46 GMT
Now here's a strange system I have never seen before. And it actually looks better than that thing above without the need for a new proprietary boot.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Mar 18, 2021 13:56:04 GMT
KobaPro2 with Voile Objectives! Haha.. Proof of concept I guess, but who needs this either when the 3PC will beat this, as well as that Xplore junk, hands down?
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Post by albertatele on Mar 18, 2021 14:45:38 GMT
Wow, I just read through what was being said at Ttalk and here's something that is so far off as to be laughable: "The pintech, the binding, and the torsional stiffness in the boot give you bombproof lateral control. It's way stiffer than a 75mm on that note."
Don't know what that guy (Crister) is smoking, but from the video you san see there is NO real stiffness in the boot, and that boot is a noodle compared to even an Excursion class 75mm, let alone a T4! So where this "bombproof lateral control" is to come from is a complete mystery. The pin tech AT THE TOE may be stiff, but that does nothing to increase torsional stiffness in that floppy boot sole which will twist around those pins like a wet wash cloth. The only sense I can make of what he is claiming is that the interface between the toe of the boot and the binding is stiffer than some 75mm, by which he perhaps meant it was a stiffer connection than that of a simple pin binding. I don't really see how that setup is really significantly better than NNN/BC , I mean sure the pins should lock in tighter than the bar does with NNN, but that's not going to translate as a revolution in XCD let alone Telemark especially with about 0 heel lift resistance.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Mar 18, 2021 15:10:13 GMT
The only Tele turns I have seen done on that system were on a basically flat slope and powder snow and they were beginner-type Tele turns with the heels held way down. Sure Telehiro can ski that setup Tele because he has already worked out the method on NNN ( as well as plain pins ). NNN meets Tech toe, that's all it is. And BTW, using a really torsionally stiff sole will just take away from the XC (flex) aspect of this thing, so there goes a big selling point. I would guess this system will be a bit better for parallel turns and a bit better for Tele turns THAN NNN. Overall for Tele on XCD, it won't compare to 3PC for downhill control and is about 4 classes down from any Hardwire setup including HW3pins or Switchbacks so they really need to stop bullshitting people about how wonderfully appropriate it is for a ski 88MM underfoot! That's an annoying joke.
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Post by mark on Mar 18, 2021 15:43:26 GMT
Half tech toe, half XC, about 0 Telemark. They could have made it more interesting by locking the heel down for a more stable and powerful alpine turn, why not, being that this is going nowhere in Telemark overall.
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Post by cunningstunts on Mar 18, 2021 17:37:02 GMT
Looks comparable to NNN-BC in terms of flex. There are boots that are stiffer, and likely that will be the case with this as well. But, I think, primarily this is a touring binding.
If it was made more like a TTS binding with a removable heel cable, it could probably have been a pretty versatile binding (but then begs why it just doesn't use a standard tech toe with flexor adapter and soft boot options) - that combined with the free pivot could have made for a very light Tele binding, and switching to the flexor is an easy change for XC skiing.
Objective is 84 underfoot in the largest size, and you could probably handle them in fresh snow conditions. Again, the real disadvantage over pins is the lack of versatility in boots.
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Post by Telebabble on Mar 18, 2021 18:02:39 GMT
It's kinda this and kinda that and not really anything, but they will try to sell it as everything. 99.9% of Telemark wants some kind of heel resistance that levers the tips and increases lateral stability FROM TOE TO HEEL and this sure ain't got it. A removable cable setup would have made this system far more attractive to the XCD crowd that is more downhill focused. Conditions vary and this binding has a narrow application.
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Post by mark on Mar 18, 2021 18:10:17 GMT
Pins can come with cables or hardwires and that coupled with boots that cannot be twisted by hand are the ADVANTAGES that put various pin options levels far above this Xplore system for Telemark and XCD. Also consider that even if you had a REALLY torsionally stiff boot for that binding, with no cable, you will fight trying to Tele on your toes continuously. You cannot make that thing attractive in any way to anyone who does not want to be limited to skiing in a high Telemark form all the time.
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Post by cunningstunts on Mar 18, 2021 19:23:22 GMT
So Mark, I agree there's a huge advantage to having the cable, even with "softer" leathers, but it's less than even a modest plastic boot. An Excursion or T4, even in plain pins, is a step above the best (current) leathers and a cable.
The advantage of the cable mainly being keeping that rear ski in contact with the snow and not getting bounced around too much as well having a good feel of balance fore/aft.
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Post by cunningstunts on Mar 18, 2021 19:40:46 GMT
Oh, so I forgot, in my personal example of skiing my Tuas with my light leathers and cable and T2s in the same conditions. I can go from really challenging and tiring skiing on green runs, and usually crashing if I hit some ice, to being able to easily ski the whole mountain.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Mar 18, 2021 20:16:39 GMT
So Mark, I agree there's a huge advantage to having the cable, even with "softer" leathers, but it's less than even a modest plastic boot. An Excursion or T4, even in plain pins, is a step above the best (current) leathers and a cable. The advantage of the cable mainly being keeping that rear ski in contact with the snow and not getting bounced around too much as well having a good feel of balance fore/aft. For me, even the spingy cable just gives me a really good feedback on how close I might be to being to0 much "on my toes", it also helps keep my from getting KNOCKED too far forward -- and those 2 things are related -- in addition, it tightens things up laterally so rolling and pressuring the tips both are more controlled and even.. The cable also works as a lever to activate (if you will) the bellows..It levers right at the start of the bellows, and that really helps keep ya off the toes! That having been said, I can unbuckle my boots and release the cables and still do an "alpine" turn down at least lower angle slopes, so it's not like i have bad balance, but Tele with heavier gear and plain pins ( or NNN for that matter ) demands the very best centering on the skis. OTOH, TD and I were skiing some firm conditions yesterday, waiting for more corn on some runs, and he made a Tele run with his hardwires off of his HW3pins, so yea, some people can - at least sometimes - make some agressive runs in the likes of a T-race and simple pins. Not me. If I had the choice between a leather boot with a really stiff sole and 2 buckles and a cable or my T2's with just pins, I would actually go with the leathers. The kind of leather I am thinking of may not exist anymore, however, at least not in the states.
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Post by cunningstunts on Mar 18, 2021 20:22:58 GMT
The boots you talk about are probably more comparable to an Excursion/T4, at least when they are new. For that very fact, the Excursion and T4 killed them being lighter, drier, better performing and easier to fit.
The leathers I'm talking about are probably closer to the skate boots you have talked about before. It's not so much even the fact of fore/aft balance as it is trying to get them to edge, and control the edge. There's just so much wind-up there in the boot that you have to overexaggerate every input while really trying to focus on balance. Being super smooth is key, but sometimes not easy on torn up snow.
For Tele, sure, just pins and big boots are not ideal. But even keeping your heels down and heel pushing you have a ton more control than you get with light leathers, just because there is such a difference in the connection between your knees/hips and where the binding meets the ski.
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Post by LoveRonnyRavenSC! on Mar 18, 2021 20:26:13 GMT
Parenthetically Mike, Tele on ice is Tele at its worst if you are in the habit of doing a lead change by retracting the lead ski; it's like hitting the brakes-- the retracted ski IS not just retracted it is also the inside ski, and so no matter how many times you hear people preach to go 50/50 on the skis for Tele, that is pure bullshit as far as icy or really hard snow goes. Sometimes ( soft snow, deep snow, heavy snow ..) retracting with emphasis is just better - avoids tipping over the front, but on hard snow - and especially ice - that is ( perhaps obviously ) not the best option. In general, scissoring the lead change seems the most functional way to Tele, though more weight on the lead ski is sometimes the better thing for balance -- or if you are trying to carve or just get higher edge angles.
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Post by Telebabble on Mar 22, 2021 22:50:36 GMT
"I'm curious on how the sole for Xplore is constructed to make it torsional rigid" IT IS N O T! look at the video dumbshit, that boot is a noodle!!!
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